Friday, August 15, 2008

Sye's proof

Sye

Just to sum up:

1. We looked at the "proof" on your website. It turned out to turn on the premise that there can be no objective laws of logic without the Judeo-Christian God. You say you don't just assume this but argue for it, and suggest the supporting argument (which you call "the impossibility of the contrary") lies behind the "continue" button. But there's no supporting argument there, and you weirdly refuse to set the argument out. The larger argument fails, then, as a "proof" for it helps itself to a premise that is contentious, challenged and, as yet, unsupported.

2. We then turned to how atheists might "account for" the laws of logic. This conversation was complex, as "account for" covers at least two quite separate issues (the question of how to justify such laws, and the question of what might metaphysically underpin them or make them hold). However, we saw that, again, you have no argument for this conclusion (other than something you call the "impossibility of the contrary", which you constantly allude to, but never actually explain). Worse, I presented three examples of atheist-friendly solutions to the puzzle of how the laws of logic might be "accounted for", none of which you've been able to refute. So, again, your claim that atheists are in principle unable to "account for" logic looks rather flimsy.

True, you do have a whole stock of rhetorical moves that you make in order to deflect attention away from these facts. I lampooned some of them here.

15 comments:

anticant said...

Sye's "proof" is an edifice of bullshit. The contrary is impossible.

Dissertator said...

Ummm, if Sye is such "bullshit", then why are we still wasting time on him? My goodness, I thought this was over a couple of weeks ago.

Andrew Louis said...

Ahh come on. Football is bullshit too... Yet even then one doesn't tend to let the game end by the other team walking away with the ball with 5mins left... Right?

And as there walking away you proclaim, "ahh, they're game was bullshit anyway."

Anonymous said...

But how do we know when this game is over?

anticant said...

The players get tired of it, and walk off the field.

Andrew Louis said...

How dare you poke holes in my horrible analogy.

anticant said...

Because of the impossibility of the contrary.

Anonymous said...

Oh my God (no pun intended).

anticant said...

No pun is necessary. If you are deluded enough to wish to worship me, I am available.

Anonymous said...

"I am available."

Well that's certainly an advantage over the other candidates...

...and I see you've got your own blog...

What sort of cathedrals do you prefer?

anticant said...

As a schoolboy, I often used to attend Evensong at Wells, which is lovely. But I doubt whether I could afford the upkeep, so won't offer to take it over as my personal temple. Something more modest, such as a luxury yacht cruising the Aegean, would be nice. My new personal cult would probably raise enough to support this.

Actually, I shall soon be paying a first visit there, to some friends who live on a small island. I shall not be as adventurous as Stephen, and will do my best to return unscathed.

Hope your recovery is making good progress, Stephen, and that there will be no lasting after-effects.

Riker said...

Wow, I finally made it to the end...

I've spent the last few days reading through this whole string of posts and comments, and wanted to refrain from commenting until I got into the most recent one before chiming in. And it looks like I've missed all the fun.

Regardless, I want to extend my gratitude and compliments to Steven and to all the commenters here for their laborious efforts in illuminating this topic; I've learned quite a lot.

Sye, in case you are still around and are still interested in pursuing this endeavor, I'd like to ask you to elaborate on the idea of revelation 'in a manner in which we can be certain'.

It strikes me that I (and presumably many of the commenters here) have no memory of such an experience in our own lives... and I don't know if if's because it didn't happen, or because I didn't recognize it for what it was.

I'm not trying to be patronizing or deceptive here; I'll admit that I'm looking at things from an atheistic perspective.

But the thing is, I'm one of those atheists that would love to be a theist. In other words, I haven't yet been convinced that there are any gods, but would be quite happy to be shown I was wrong.

I think if you could describe specifically your experience of revelation, and what about that experience makes its certainty assured, it would go a long way to make me and lots of others soften up to your ideas.

We might just lack the information required to recognize certain revelation, and I gather that it's information you possess.

Regards,

Riker.

anticant said...

Riker, Why would you 'love' to be a theist? What do you perceive as the benefits of being one?

Riker said...

Anticant,

I simply mean, if there really was a god looking out for us, taking care of us, and preparing an eternity of bliss for us after we die, then that would be an unarguably good thing, right?

ryan anderson said...

well is this it then? the end of the sye endeavor? i read through all of july in the past hours 3 but i honestly couldn't handle anymore of it, and sensed it would take the rest of the day, i looked at his site proofgodexists.org yesterday and was utterly disgusted and was looking for a page like this that punched holes in it. sometimes sye's supposed arguments made me burst out laughing and sometimes they made me go into a rage.. i thought the posts by a certain kyle at the beginning, stephen, andrew, anticant and others were most educating. honestly the reason i was so interested in reading to the end was i was honestly convinced posts such as the great wombat and hindu type posts or many others which basically dismantled his argument would somehow enlighten him and he would just say "oh i was wrong." Oh well it appears this is not the case, it is indeed obvious that the debate was won and always will be won by atheism, anyway good luck in all your pursuit of truth to all of you 2 years late. ;)