tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post8195949947164856238..comments2024-03-22T06:22:08.010+00:00Comments on Stephen Law: St Theresa's relics in townStephen Lawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-9764337226704998662009-10-15T12:45:14.592+00:002009-10-15T12:45:14.592+00:00Matthew Paris has a article on the topic - "I...Matthew Paris has a article on the topic - <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article6875245.ece" rel="nofollow">"In the cathedral I saw a sign"</a>wombatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-68143688539050687872009-10-15T10:36:35.545+00:002009-10-15T10:36:35.545+00:00This saint's "bones" are being hawke...This saint's "bones" are being hawked around the country for display and veneration at various venues, including Wormwood Scrubs!<br /><br />IMHO in this day and age this isn't just harmless religious loopiness - it's gross superstition and both moral and intellectual degradation<br />which most certainly doesn't deserve 'respect' but should be laughed to scorn by any sensible person.<br /><br />We seem to be rapidly retreating back into the pre-Reformation Middle Ages when stuff like this is solemnly reported as 'news'.anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-48462476313449696442009-10-13T01:39:58.362+00:002009-10-13T01:39:58.362+00:00Well, I see the URL was cut off. But if anyone...Well, I see the URL was cut off. But if anyone's interested in reading the review they can go to www.washingtonpost.com and do a search of the author's name, Susan Jacoby. It will come up as an Oct. 10 article, "Thanks, But No Thanks, From A Happy Atheist."Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-82614278704085248852009-10-13T01:34:09.537+00:002009-10-13T01:34:09.537+00:00Speaking of Karen Armstrong, here is a scathing re...Speaking of Karen Armstrong, here is a scathing review of her book in the Washington Post:<br /><br />http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/susan_jacoby/2009/10/thanks_but_no_thanks_from_a_happy_atheist.htmlMikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-55388094172736149002009-10-12T07:45:34.448+00:002009-10-12T07:45:34.448+00:00Further to the above, see:
http://www.weeklystand...Further to the above, see:<br /><br />http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/017/043ytrhc.asp?pg=1anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-3519676028979530932009-10-12T06:26:50.088+00:002009-10-12T06:26:50.088+00:00You have put your finger on it, Mike. Don't al...You have put your finger on it, Mike. Don't all sincere religious believers think that they are 'the elect', and that those who don't share their faith are 'infidels' beyond the pale who will go to Hell or wherever? Surely that is one of the main attractions of being a believer - knowing you have God on your side, and that those who don't belong to your team are damned.<br /><br />Not content with that, believers now seek, ever more stridently, to have their beliefs ring-fenced from criticism - by law, if possible. Keep a wary eye at what's going on at the UN and EU, where the Organisation of Islamic States is striving to water down the Universal Declaration of Human Rights so as to make criticism of religion a 'disrespectful' offence and to pave the way for worldwide acceptance of Sharia law.anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-68515167815763776182009-10-12T03:06:23.017+00:002009-10-12T03:06:23.017+00:00I don't think there was anything intolerant ab...I don't think there was anything intolerant about your original post, Stephen. As for Secretary's finding it "rude and offensive," I suspect he is being a bit disingenuous. If a religious believer reads this blog it is surely because he knows it is a place where atheist views are expressed. When I was growing up as a Catholic I remember being taught in catechism class that non-Catholics could not enter heaven and would most likely go to hell. If a non-Catholic had been in the room I imagine he or she would have found this more than a little rude and offensive. But I doubt there were any non-Catholics lurking about. (It wasn't a blog.) Your characterization of the plenary indulgence as essentially a "get-out-of-Purgatory card" is fair.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-71829670350326023412009-10-11T22:37:40.777+00:002009-10-11T22:37:40.777+00:00Hi Mike,
"We atheists have an ugly tendency ...Hi Mike,<br /><br /><i>"We atheists have an ugly tendency to do exactly what the religious extremists do -- to demonize the other group (in our case not a specific religion but all religions) and to assert that the world will not be right until the other belief systems have been eradicated."</i><br /><br />Sounds very fundamentalist to me. Personally, I think you give atheism a bad name.<br /><br />I agree completely with Anticant's comment:<br /><br /><i>"Personal devotion, mysticism, spirituality, and other ways of exploring self-awareness are fine by me. Religious dogma as a political weapon isn't."</i><br /><br />As for Stephen's question about what Karen Armstrong would think, the only person who can answer that is her. But she did leave the Catholic order a disillusioned nun, so maybe that provides a clue.<br /><br />Regards, Paul.Paul P. Mealinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14573615711151742992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-88979993046008111182009-10-11T22:36:24.385+00:002009-10-11T22:36:24.385+00:00I called the Catholic Church "absolutely bonk...I called the Catholic Church "absolutely bonkers", clerics not useful, said it was time-wasting nonsense and mentioned "nutty rituals". I could accept that Secretary might find my comments rude but think it would be stretching a point to call then offensive, surely.<br /><br />On the other hand I was arguing that we should be tolerant towards believers and the Church, as long as they weren't harming others. This is something Secretary is asking for. Since he says "leave others alone" is he asking that we don't even discuss our opinions?Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08240399669150057121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-44817470546418352802009-10-11T17:07:29.366+00:002009-10-11T17:07:29.366+00:00See: http://antarena.blogspot.com/2009/10/is-belie...See: http://antarena.blogspot.com/2009/10/is-believing-in-nonsense-harmless.htmlanticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-32918369929980955452009-10-11T15:30:39.218+00:002009-10-11T15:30:39.218+00:00Hello Secretary. I accept you are offended. But I ...Hello Secretary. I accept you are offended. But I am not entirely sure why (really - I am not feigning ignorance here). I added a post script to the post, btw, partly in response. Also, why is the post "intolerant")?Stephen Lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-68939581782868229802009-10-11T07:27:37.799+00:002009-10-11T07:27:37.799+00:00Secretary,
Don't you Little Oratorians distin...Secretary,<br /><br />Don't you Little Oratorians distinguish between faith and superstition?anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-7310433967676280492009-10-10T23:23:28.802+00:002009-10-10T23:23:28.802+00:00I think this post, the content and the tone of it,...I think this post, the content and the tone of it, is appalling. It is intolerant, rude and offensive. If you consider yourself "intelligent", why do you think this kind of writing does can do any good? Suffice to say that some people believe in God, in heaven, and in building a better world before they get there: if you don't believe in these things just get on and enjoy life while you can and leave others alone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-30019146361135292212009-10-10T16:29:44.138+00:002009-10-10T16:29:44.138+00:00Mike,
I doubt that the world will ever be "r...Mike,<br /><br />I doubt that the world will ever be "right", and I don't wish to eradicate anything except the invocation of 'God', 'Jehovah', 'Allah' or any other supernatural entity as "proof" that one's beliefs and opinions are divinely inspired and therefore entitled to trump everybody else's.<br /><br />Personal devotion, mysticism, spirituality, and other ways of exploring self-awareness are fine by me. Religious dogma as a political weapon isn't.anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-48066103667619237002009-10-10T14:47:19.080+00:002009-10-10T14:47:19.080+00:00Paul,
The original discussion here had nothing to ...Paul,<br />The original discussion here had nothing to do with the intolerance of religious people. It was about irrational beliefs -- holy relics, plenary indulgences -- which, as Stephen pointed out, are quite literal despite what Karen Armstrong says. So if intolerance arose it was not in direct response to someone else's intolerance. And anyway, isn't that a bit like the little boy blaming the other kid for a fight by saying "He started it"? We atheists have an ugly tendency to do exactly what the religious extremists do -- to demonize the other group (in our case not a specific religion but all religions) and to assert that the world will not be right until the other belief systems have been eradicated.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-24951593535351511632009-10-10T07:16:16.653+00:002009-10-10T07:16:16.653+00:00Well, Paul, as someone observed earlier, you are v...Well, Paul, as someone observed earlier, you are very fortunate. From what you say, the Southern Hemisphere is on a different cultural and religious planet to Europe, where "Us" and "Them" along religious lines is the current political growth industry.anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-40838748114912066402009-10-10T02:13:04.626+00:002009-10-10T02:13:04.626+00:00Anticant,
What you are demonstrating is something...Anticant,<br /><br />What you are demonstrating is something I have observed first hand and is exemplified by Dawkins' book: intolerance creates intolerance of itself.<br /><br />I learnt through personal exposure (not to religion but to prejudice and exonophobia) that, like yourself, I am intolerant of intolerance. In fact, I've argued that the limits of tolerance is determined by the intolerance of others. The corollary to this is that intolerance makes normally tolerant people intolerant, and so it expands and accelerates into the larger community. I've seen this happen on a national scale.<br /><br />But when it comes to religion I'm a bit more selective - I don't assume that all religious people are intolerant, and, in fact, I know that that is not the case.<br /><br />I grew up in an 'Us' and 'Them' society (based on so-called religion, but, in reality, politics) and no one where I live, who remembers it, wants to go back to it.<br /><br />Regards, Paul.Paul P. Mealinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14573615711151742992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-6709896824258589262009-10-09T17:51:35.780+00:002009-10-09T17:51:35.780+00:00Andrew - "My "word verification" to...Andrew - "My "word verification" to post was "amen". Nice."<br /><br />A miracle!<br /><br />We can petition for beatification. Soon it will be www.bleassedblogspot.com<br /><br />Maybe we will get the first saint whose remains fit in a 19" rack.wombatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-38631190910012027642009-10-09T15:44:26.028+00:002009-10-09T15:44:26.028+00:00"Of course I am not saying that every individ..."Of course I am not saying that every individual believer is socially toxic, filled with active hatred against those of a different belief or none, etc. The problem is tribalism. If you are an adherent of a particular faith - especially if you have been indoctrinated into it from childhood - you will automatically side with your pastors - clergy, rabbis, imams - who preach that your faith is threatened by those who don't share it, and who are therefore your enemies."<br /><br />It doesn't help when Christians consistently claim modern Europe/USA was founded upon Christian institutions, with Christianity being responsible for everything from music and art to human rights and science. <br /><br />But Irish people have an easy answer to the usual objection of "You want to destroy 1000 years of Christian culture?" :- We had 800 years of British rule. Would you like to keep that too?theObservernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-91458911314600147682009-10-09T15:23:41.880+00:002009-10-09T15:23:41.880+00:001) There was a minor squabble in Ireland over the ...1) There was a minor squabble in Ireland over the state honour guard supplied to escort these relics from church to church.<br /><br />2) The mass card industry is still an important money spinner for the Catholic church in Ireland. My older relatives still pay a priest to 'bless' a card or to have a mass dedicated to a deceased loved one. <br /><br />3) I was raised in a Catholic family; my granddad raised 9 kids piled two and three into a bed; I attended a Catholic school and was taught by nuns and priests until I graduated aged 18; I attended mandatory school religious retreats and 'talks'; I attended weekly mass for 18 years; I was shown graphic abortion videos during religion class, taught seven day evolution, punished for forgetting to capitalize the ‘g’ in God (“At the very least He deserves a capital letter”), listened to my English teacher inform the class that “if Saint Anthony failed to help find your keys, then you have to give him a bigger donation”. Yet I have *never* heard of this “God cannot be the member of any set” nonsense until Dawkins started ruffling a few feathers. <br /><br />Sam Norton considers me half-educated. Yet having attended the Catholic school system from the early 80’s until 1995 in one of the most religious countries in Europe, the God I was taught to believe in bares absolutely no resemblance to the God of Sam.<br /><br />Atheists are 100% correct in attacking the God of the people, the God worldwide institutions are built upon, the God representative of the majority of Christians. Not the whimsical God of the theologians, of ‘Class 1 mystics’, the indescribable god who maintains all of creation through love and intellect beyound human standing. <br /><br />This battle is as much about culture as truth. Perhaps more so.theObservernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-23102502355872597252009-10-09T15:02:12.323+00:002009-10-09T15:02:12.323+00:00Of course I am not saying that every individual be...Of course I am not saying that every individual believer is socially toxic, filled with active hatred against those of a different belief or none, etc. The problem is tribalism. If you are an adherent of a particular faith - especially if you have been indoctrinated into it from childhood - you will automatically side with your pastors - clergy, rabbis, imams - who preach that your faith is threatened by those who don't share it, and who are therefore your enemies.<br /><br />This type of preaching is all too common in today's strife-ridden world.anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-48803496023423086032009-10-09T14:21:34.462+00:002009-10-09T14:21:34.462+00:00Saucer a’ milk, table two, ssssss.
---
Anticant,...Saucer a’ milk, table two, ssssss.<br /><br />---<br /><br />Anticant,<br />The problem with your position is that (whereas I agree) it’s not a product of religious practice, but a product of absolutism, (or so I’d suggest). i.e. intolerance is abound in an institutional system of belief, theist or atheist, where absolute ideals exist. <br /><br />To put it in yet another way, religious practice in and of itself does not bread intolerance, so on and so forth, rather it’s the metaphysical stance one takes towards they’re world view that does.<br /><br />My "word verification" to post was "amen". Nice.Andrew Louishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204999524677028033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-29347777050850586782009-10-09T12:00:42.061+00:002009-10-09T12:00:42.061+00:00Well, well. Ad hominem abuse is no substitute for ...Well, well. Ad hominem abuse is no substitute for argument.<br /><br />I would have thought that a philosophy blog was the ideal place for a serious discussion of the limits of tolerance.anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-68460017539551811472009-10-09T11:07:41.736+00:002009-10-09T11:07:41.736+00:00I loved all this stuff as a child growing up Catho...I loved all this stuff as a child growing up Catholic. Having a miraculous medal pinned to your vest, going to mass on nine consecutive Fridays. All to avoid time in purgatory. As an adult I did, inadvertently, get an indulgence by walking the pilgrim route to Santiago de Compostela. My own kids miss out on all of this since they are not being brought up Catholic. Perhaps that is why they are so obsessed by Pokemon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-50408913441911996202009-10-09T09:13:12.218+00:002009-10-09T09:13:12.218+00:00I don't feel the need to respond to Anticant&#...I don't feel the need to respond to Anticant's perverse allegation, so I'm out too.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08240399669150057121noreply@blogger.com