tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post6333035028866210882..comments2024-03-22T06:22:08.010+00:00Comments on Stephen Law: Israel, Palestine and TerrorStephen Lawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-50483551779016504242008-06-17T06:52:00.000+00:002008-06-17T06:52:00.000+00:00Sounds great to me !!Sounds great to me !!Nigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04801470126697483229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-69099982720587260462008-06-16T10:37:00.000+00:002008-06-16T10:37:00.000+00:00Here's someone using an innovative form of non-vio...Here's someone using an innovative form of non-violent protest- a human rights group has handed out video cameras to Palestinians so that they can capture the violence done to them. It's being used to help them prove their cases to the police it seems, but now the BBC has obtained one of the videos, couldn't this be a fantastic way of raising awareness without the need for mass protests and organisation etc? The link's here:<BR/><BR/>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7451691.stmSally_bmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581010343971175339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-73505558522190124422008-06-15T14:47:00.000+00:002008-06-15T14:47:00.000+00:00Sally, people start from where they are, and where...Sally, people start from where they are, and where they are is decided by what happened before they were born. We British have nothing to be proud of in the Middle East: in response to wartime needs and ill thought out assumptions, we produced one of the most fatuous diplomatic documents of all time - the 1917 'Balfour Declaration' - fatuous because it purported to square the circle by promising the Jews a National Home in Palestine "without prejudice to the interests of the existing inhabitants" - an obvious impossibility - and then we failed to curb illegal immigration or to suppress Jewish terrorism while we held the League of Nations Mandate.<BR/><BR/>Since we destroyed our own influence in the region through the folly of the 1956 Suez adventure, the Americans have made an even worse fist of their primarily selfishly motivated oil-greedy interference in the region.<BR/><BR/>It's no wonder that the Jews cling on to America's skirts for all they're worth, while the Arabs feel themselves to have been victimised and betrayed by the West ever since the Ottoman Empire collapsed.<BR/><BR/>The whole mess is a real witches' brew.<BR/><BR/>Have a look at some of my posts in anticant's arena:<BR/><BR/>http://antarena.blogspot.comanticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-16993514404302841152008-06-15T09:27:00.000+00:002008-06-15T09:27:00.000+00:00Hi Kosh3It's interesting that Dorkins etc claim Je...Hi Kosh3<BR/><BR/>It's interesting that Dorkins etc claim Jesus wasn't that influential for MLK. From my perspective it seems MLK learnt from a lot of people (and Gandhi was definitely one of them) but that Jesus was his guiding light. He always claimed, at least, that this was the case and that he was primarily a minister honestly following through the gospel's teachings. He also used Christianity to recruit, mobilise and organise his troops, where I don't think Gandhi's name would have been as effective. I guess again though, that's a social factor too, cos the black church was part of black american culture etc.<BR/><BR/>Hi anticant<BR/>Your point about hatred made me wonder... There must have been huge wells of hatred in the American and Indian (and other) non-violent movements too, thinking of the murders and violence and repression and hypocrisy of it all. Why might it be more damaging in Palestine? Do you think the fact that in America blacks had grown up under white supremacy for generations, allowed their final breakthrough to be more positive, perhaps, than angry? Their protests were clearly a positive symbol of progress and empowerment. Maybe it's gone too far for that in Palestine? <BR/><BR/>I don't know. To be honest I just can't SEE it happening in the middle east. Not very philosophical of me. And however much we look at the past, we have to judge individual situations individually too a bit don't we? Ha, that's ironically a lesson the past has taught us!Sally_bmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581010343971175339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-601243833098779282008-06-15T09:19:00.000+00:002008-06-15T09:19:00.000+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sally_bmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581010343971175339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-1771448045397369212008-06-15T07:12:00.000+00:002008-06-15T07:12:00.000+00:00One thing everyone who is concerned to reduce viol...One thing everyone who is concerned to reduce violence in Palestine or anywhere else in the world can do is to read and sign the Global Petition Against Violence: <BR/><BR/>http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?John1948<BR/><BR/>This is entirely non-political, was written and posted by me and some other concerned blogging friends over a year ago, and so far has attracted just over 50 signatures! We had hoped – maybe naively – that it would take off and snowball. There’s still time, so please join us and get others to do so as well.<BR/><BR/>As for the USA and Palestine, Google AIPAC and learn how the right-wing Zionists exert their stranglehold over American politics on behalf of the belligerent Israeli government. AIPAC givers the carefully cultivated impression of being the voice of all American Jews, but in fact it is the lobbying tool of a small but very powerful, because well-financed, extreme Zionist clique in Israel and the USA. The reason why so many Americans fall for the “little Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and so America must always back it” spiel is a combination of ignorance and assiduously whipped up guilt feelings about the Holocaust. Also anti-Islamism following 9/11, even though the Saudis have what is probably the second most powerful and lavishly funded lobby in Washington and many American politicians – Democrat as well as Republican – are said to pocket handouts from both AIPAC and the Saudis! <BR/><BR/>And non-violence was an established tradition long before Ghandi, though he did succeed in using it in more effective ways than most others have been able to do. But I fear I share the pessimism of those who think that non-violence hasn’t much chance in Palestine in the foreseeable future because of the visceral hatred that has grown up between generations of these rival Semites during the past 60 years thanks to the failure to establish a peaceful modus vivendi after the state of Israel was established. <BR/><BR/>The best hope for a better Middle East is a drastic change in American policy after the November election, but judging from recent statements by both candidates this doesn’t look very likely.anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-50568571291224453042008-06-15T02:26:00.000+00:002008-06-15T02:26:00.000+00:00Sally_bm:Yeah social factors play into it, for ins...Sally_bm:<BR/><BR/>Yeah social factors play into it, for instance in terms of what emphasis is drawn upon what passages of the Quran, etc. A firebrand cleric is naturally going to cause more people to adopt an aggressive attitude than someone who emphasises, say, Mohammed's preachings in Mecca (where he was a lot nicer and less militant). <BR/><BR/>People often do point to Martin Luther King as an example of Christianity 'done right'. But Harris and Dawkins and co. are at pains to claim that his non-violent ideology originated not from Christianity and from Jesus, but from Gandhi. In other words, it was not Jesus's example he was following, but Gandhi's. <BR/><BR/>Just on that point, Gandhi is upheld as the supreme example of pacifism and non-violent resistance. But there was always the threat of violence that hung over all that he did. If Gandhi had died, because of the British or whatever, there would have been a blood soaked revolution. Every time Gandhi fasted in protest of British rule, that bloody revolution hung in the background. One of the main ways then that Gandhi could really bring pressure upon the British was to fast.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-66849500625870674732008-06-14T10:40:00.000+00:002008-06-14T10:40:00.000+00:00Hey Kosh3, good point. I don't know much about Gan...Hey Kosh3, good point. I don't know much about Gandhi, but I know Christianity played a huge role in the American movement, especially for MLK's campaigns. There seems to be a bit more debate amongst Muslims as to how peaceful they have to be. Do you think that that's arguably a social factor as well, since the religious teachings are interpreted within the context of specific histories and traditions etc etc?Sally_bmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581010343971175339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-61444243912396135682008-06-14T00:36:00.000+00:002008-06-14T00:36:00.000+00:00Hello Dr Law,I believe there is a good evidence th...Hello Dr Law,<BR/><BR/>I believe there is a good evidence that non-violent resistence works!<BR/><BR/>Nelson Mandela in South Africa and Xananna Gusmao/Jose Ramos Horta in East Timor could be classified as non-violent success stories?<BR/><BR/>Aung San Su Kyi in Burma and the Dalai Lama in exile, continue to insist on non-violent opposition and consequently are respected by a large part of the world community. <BR/><BR/>In your own country, the Irish Republicans and English Imperialists have come to realise the benefits of political solutions instead of violence.<BR/><BR/>Voice, Pen and Camera beat the sword, any day, because they are creative, NOT destructive tools!Nigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04801470126697483229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-18556237673219686832008-06-13T23:25:00.000+00:002008-06-13T23:25:00.000+00:00I would simply add that non-violence on the part o...I would simply add that non-violence on the part of the Palestinians appears to me to be all the more improbable as a result of various Islamic values and beliefs. There are many many commands to violence in the Quran. One could reinterpret them of course as somehow commands to resistance, which could then be interpreted to be non-violent resistance, but that too seems improbable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-51268541852298928152008-06-13T09:25:00.000+00:002008-06-13T09:25:00.000+00:00That was really interesting, thanks. I was surpris...That was really interesting, thanks. <BR/><BR/>I was surprised you didn't make more of the importance of the media for the success of past struggles. In my opinion, the media's role in capturing the violence and criminality of the white power structure in America was the crucial factor in forcing change for African Americans. Also, I agree that a charismatic, media-friendly leader can help build and sustain a movement, but I don't think it's essential as long as a strong ethos/ method can be maintained without such a figurehead. Looking at the African American movement again, a lot of the action was done by grass roots organisations like student groups, who actively refused to join MLK's movement but succeeded through simply holding effective, well-thought-out, determined, non-violent protests. <BR/><BR/>Obviously some leadership is needed for an effective mass protest, and this difficult for the Palestinians when all their effective leaders are removed. Why does this immoral action by the Israelis provoke no pressure from the West? Does the fact that western leaders are willing to overlook it suggest to Palestinians that a moral appeal would be doomed from the start?<BR/><BR/>It also seems that Britain and America had more pressure on them to appear moral and upright in the cases of the Indian and African American movements. America had to pose as the protector of freedom, democracy, human rights etc etc because of the cold war, and images of police dogs and water canons brutalising school children didn't do much to help this image. They had little choice BUT to act.<BR/><BR/>Is Israel really under the same pressure? Many of the countries in the West that might have pressured them have shown no backbone to their morals (if they have morals at all), and the American government doesn't seem too concerned about even appearing moral anymore. I get the impression that people are used to seeing injustice in the Middle East and have come to accept that they can do little about it.<BR/><BR/>Although, maybe mass non-violent protests and articulate leaders would force people "here" to recognise the equal humanity and worth of those people being treated unjustly, and persuade them that it isn't ok and that we should feel moved (and moved to action) by it. Sais pas.Sally_bmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581010343971175339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-80411586535974556302008-06-13T02:59:00.000+00:002008-06-13T02:59:00.000+00:00Nice article. Not that I know much about the subje...Nice article. Not that I know much about the subject, but it seems like reason 4. of "why non-violence may have failed" is a crutial one. If a non-violent resistance is accompanied with acts of terrorism, the entire resistance is painted as terrorists, and thus they lose all ligitemacy. <BR/><BR/>As I learn more about world events, I see how completely lacking my high school social studies and history classes were.Jachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01622919505576895393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-33539527158184159012008-06-12T22:06:00.000+00:002008-06-12T22:06:00.000+00:00If my country was occupied by Britain and I could ...If my country was occupied by Britain and I could kill British children in Britain, and still be labeled a freedom fighter and victim, would I not do that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com