tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post2260836039394810734..comments2024-03-22T06:22:08.010+00:00Comments on Stephen Law: Tutition fees, the rich and Labour - red Steve rants.Stephen Lawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-37326104406979588332010-12-11T13:24:07.483+00:002010-12-11T13:24:07.483+00:00By the way I was suggesting increasing the tax bur...By the way I was suggesting increasing the tax burden on rich. I was suggesting increasing it across the board by same proportion, e.g. 1 percent.Stephen Lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-16263176829709840332010-12-11T13:21:18.451+00:002010-12-11T13:21:18.451+00:00Anon
Well, full marks for selective use of statis...Anon<br /><br />Well, full marks for selective use of statistics to Tim Harford. We all know what people pay, depending on income. The first £7k or so is tax free, then there are tax bands. Because very many people earn not that much, they pay very little tax. That explains the distribution to which you refer.<br /><br />Now that arrangement might strike you as "not fair" if it results in the top 1 percent 25% of total tax in 12.5 of total income (assuming these stats have not themselves been cherry picked to exclude VAT, tax on fags and booze and petrol, etc.). So what would be fair? Everyone paying, say. 35% of their total income?<br /><br />Thank you by the way on correcting me about what the top 1 percent pay. I suggested it was so little as proportion of total tax take that not worth bothering with, but it's actually over 25%! Great! They ARE worth bothering with, then!Stephen Lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-37023420510899715232010-12-11T10:52:00.296+00:002010-12-11T10:52:00.296+00:00Like it or not the super rich are already paying w...Like it or not the super rich are already paying way more than their "fair share" of tax.<br /><br />This is straight from Tim Harford:<br /><br />"the top 5 per cent of UK earners take in a quarter of the country’s income and pay almost half of all income tax; the top 1 per cent make 12.5 per cent of income, and pay over a quarter of all income tax"<br /><br />It seems this truth is forgotten by those who wish to increase taxes for high earners - I guess it's an uncomfortable truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-91122420064118785822010-12-10T20:18:43.381+00:002010-12-10T20:18:43.381+00:00Re: Graduate Tax.
The problem with this is surely...Re: Graduate Tax.<br /><br />The problem with this is surely that it is fundamentally illiberal as it represents a tax on who you are rather than what you have or how you behave.<br />Where would it end? Arguing that white people are (still) at an advantage over other ethnic groups and should be taxed more? People with musical ability perhaps? - after all they can earn a bit more by busking.wombatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-92065612138969414782010-12-10T15:57:09.476+00:002010-12-10T15:57:09.476+00:00"Your view maybe - "Well, why not, that&...<i> "Your view maybe - "Well, why not, that's not unfair. The rich currently pay too much." Is it?"</i><br /><br />More that "The rich are always going to suffer less in a recession because they've got more money to tide themselves over with, and that this is currently happening doesn't prove that the Tories are deliberately framing policy to benefit them."<br /><br />And leaving aside the issue of whether or not the rich pay enough, too much, or around the right amount (I haven't made up my mind on that myself), we've already got income tax to make sure the rich contribute more. If you don't think they're contributing enough, wouldn't it be simpler (and probably therefore cheaper to administrate) just to increase income tax, rather than mess around with graduate taxes and sliding scales of child benefit and so forth?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-51790981317902576992010-12-10T15:30:25.648+00:002010-12-10T15:30:25.648+00:00TAM - I like the modest propsal very much. Will tw...TAM - I like the modest propsal very much. Will tweet it.Stephen Lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-63282713570669597472010-12-10T15:25:12.369+00:002010-12-10T15:25:12.369+00:00Anonymous - no time to deal with each point right ...Anonymous - no time to deal with each point right now, but notice that the effect of such changes is to shift the burden away from rich and onto the middle classes. Your view maybe - "Well, why not, that's not unfair. The rich currently pay too much." Is it?Stephen Lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-1829072164527209862010-12-10T15:20:26.512+00:002010-12-10T15:20:26.512+00:00Troika - I had already thought of that. Flat rate ...Troika - I had already thought of that. Flat rate graduate tax on UK nationals, irrespective of whether it was acquired out of the country.<br /><br />No system is entirely fair, but that is much fairer.Stephen Lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-5186505120351327272010-12-10T15:00:56.537+00:002010-12-10T15:00:56.537+00:00"Weirdly, the Labour party are failing to cas...<i> "Weirdly, the Labour party are failing to cash in on the growing, widespread resentment against big business and the very wealthy."</i><br /><br />Possibly because Labour spent 18 years out of power when trying this, and only got voted back in when Tony Blair ditched all that class war rhetoric? Which doesn't necessarily mean that such a strategy will fail now, but being cautiout to embrace a tactic which has failed in the past isn't too "weird".<br /><br /><i> "Take child benefit. That's cut for families earning over a certain amount. This is "progressive" we're told, but of course, it's way of directing cuts onto the middle classes, not the rich, who will lose the exact same amount whether they are on £42k or £2 or £20 million a year. It's a poll tax on everyone over a certain threshold."</i><br /><br />It's only a "poll tax" if you think of government benefits as being rightfully yours, and that any cuts to them are, therefore, taking away your own money.<br /><br />Anyway, I don't see why you're against cutting benefits to people who don't need them. Given that the government has got to reduct the deficit, it's fairly inevitable that there are going to be lots of cuts, and cutting child benefit to the middle and upper classes reduces the amount that will have to be cut from the police, education, NHS etc.<br /><br /><i> "most importantly, will pay the same fee as everyone else (which will be no more than they are currently paying for Lucinda and Henry's private school tuition)."</i><br /><br />Well they are getting the same education as everyone else, so why shouldn't they pay the same? We don't complain that it costs the same for a rich man to buy a book or magazine or something like that.<br /><br /><i> "Introduce a 1, 2 or 3 percent (whatever is needed) income tax increase for education levied on every graduate earning over a certain amount, with (most importantly) no upper limit or upper amount. This would apply to current graduates, so would not be disproportionately loaded onto the next generation leaving the current generation to get away Scot free but new grads saddled with £50k debt each."</i><br /><br />I'm afraid I fail to see the fairness in retrospectively changing the rules like this. When people went to university, the deal was that they would get their education paid for by the taxpayer, and then, once they started paying taxes, they would in turn subsidise others' education. Changing this now that it's too late for them to change their minds seems a bit unfair, a bit like if a friend offered to let you borrow his car and then demanded that you pay for the privilege after you'd already used it.<br /><br />Anyway, tuition fees operate less like a loan, more like a form of income tax which cuts out after you pay a certain amount, so to talk of people being "burdened with debt" is a bit misleading.<br /><br /><i> "P.S. this is an observation about "divide and rule" strategy. I realize that the very rich constitute such a small percentage of the population that increasing the amount they pay won't have that much of an impact on the deficit."</i><br /><br />Hopefully the Labour Party is too honourable to advocate a policy they know won't do anything to help solely in order to get elected. Not that their past behaviour gives much ground for hope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-53230498810707913422010-12-10T12:51:02.717+00:002010-12-10T12:51:02.717+00:00Your wife should have taken the opportunity to pre...Your wife should have taken the opportunity to present the demonstrators with A Modest Proposal to Transition to a "Cater to the Rich" Economy: http://www.truth-out.org/a-modest-proposal-transition-a-cater-rich-economy65736The Atheist Missionaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07191035196328725888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-23648855672017003932010-12-10T12:32:16.463+00:002010-12-10T12:32:16.463+00:00Is it possible that Labour aren't tapping into...Is it possible that Labour aren't tapping into this because they also wish to court the rich and big business?<br /><br />-CaiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-51347417181448753532010-12-10T11:43:29.378+00:002010-12-10T11:43:29.378+00:00You know, I find myself in agreement with the Econ...You know, I find myself in agreement with the Economist. A graduate tax would be hard to implement.<br /><br />How would it be applied to foreign students who go home after they have completed their studies?<br /><br />Anyone of a sufficently internationalist pursuasion could also simply leave the country.<br /><br />And will the tax apply to any graduate, regardless of where they studied? If not, then the rich could start sending their little darlings out of the country, get a education at a international university, come home and avoid paying.<br /><br />People will do all kinds of things to avoid taxes.Troika21noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-49775021803201050092010-12-10T11:16:45.382+00:002010-12-10T11:16:45.382+00:00This is great, Stephen. I also have noticed the &#...This is great, Stephen. I also have noticed the 'divide and rule' tactic being used and I wrote to my MP Andrew Smith about this very issue. I also agree that this is a wonderful (and thus far, missed) opportunity for Ed Miliband, who has seemed rather ineffectual so far. Thanks, a great post! I will share it on FB. Beth Penfold.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06647350036052693398noreply@blogger.com