tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post1524730861404137156..comments2024-03-22T06:22:08.010+00:00Comments on Stephen Law: Race, class and intelligenceStephen Lawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02167317543994731177noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-55601197597681827552011-04-18T20:35:06.397+00:002011-04-18T20:35:06.397+00:00Stephen,
I think I might have identified a point ...Stephen,<br /><br />I think I might have identified a point of contention. In your hypothetical situation, populations A and B do not interbreed. In you example of race bias, a person who succeeds in spite of their skin colour is still black. But neither is true of the 'middle class' and 'working class' groups you are discussing. Your Bpnhj category does not apply because there is still a separate differentiator - colour - that does not differentiate between middle and working classes, but could be used to identify and therefore discriminate. You appear to be implying but not making explicit a separate class differentiator. What makes people mi middle class apart from their income? <br /><br />Don't misunderstand, I think it quite likely that non intelligence factors come into play when determining 'success', narrowly defined, but no one appears to be arguing against that point. Educational opportunities, parental ability to provide educational support, etc. Nepotism must play a small part, but my own limited experience is that it is not determinative (by almost any definition we could agree on my parents were born and raised working class, and were poor until late in life, but the encouragement and help they personally gave me means that I am, by almost any definition, middle class)..Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-53267198079956454452011-04-18T17:31:17.664+00:002011-04-18T17:31:17.664+00:00I know what a Hitchslap is, so is this similar - a...I know what a Hitchslap is, so is this similar - a Lawslap ? :-)Paul Bairdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06269660700687899683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-73203005321291505822011-04-18T13:12:21.257+00:002011-04-18T13:12:21.257+00:00"Anyone knowing this stuff would be bigoted o...<i> "Anyone knowing this stuff would be bigoted or foolish to conclude that, given they fail to show up much in the high paid jobs, black people are innately less intelligent,"</i><br /><br />Not a very good analogy, since the argument you began the thread with makes no mention in its premises about social make-up of jobs. A closer analogy would be:<br /><br />Premise 1: Black people are, on average, less intelligent than white people.<br />Premise 2: Intelligent people are more likely to get high-paid jobs.<br />Conclusion: Even in a perfect meritocracy, we should expect the proportion of black people in high-paying jobs to be lower than the proportion of black people in the general population.<br /><br />Note that this does not say anything about other factors affecting black people. It would, as I have said before, be possible for black people to be both less intelligent on average and discriminated against. Your analogy, on the other hand, is less defensible, because it requires acceptance of the implicit premise that genetics is the only factor in success.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-39276585554361018842011-04-18T09:31:04.102+00:002011-04-18T09:31:04.102+00:00Personally, I find it very hard to believe that th...Personally, I find it very hard to believe that the poorer diet and poorer pre-natal care (on average) of working-class mothers could have any effect on the intelligence of their babies.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-29269357929767090912011-04-18T09:27:42.578+00:002011-04-18T09:27:42.578+00:00There is no contradiction between "Working-cl...There is no contradiction between "Working-class people are, on average, less intelligent than middle-class people" and "Working class people are disadvantaged when it comes to the job market." It's entirely possible to believe both that (a) there are more intelligent middle-class people than there are intelligent working-class people, and (b) that intelligent working-class people are less likely to do well than similarly intelligent middle-class people. Ditto with black people and white people. Saying that "other factors may be preventing" working-class people from doing well doesn't contradict Woodhead's argument.<br /><br /><i> " Not even if we actually partly define “working” class in terms of not holding a high paying job. That's just a bit of semantic sleight of hand from anon."</i><br /><br />Do you dispute that jobs traditionally considered to be "working-class" tend to pay less than jobs traditionally considered to be "middle-class"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1905686568472747305.post-74924509888527969632011-04-18T08:44:14.132+00:002011-04-18T08:44:14.132+00:00"Suppose that those getting high paid jobs ar...<i>"Suppose that those getting high paid jobs are drawn almost exclusively from group B. Group A is, for various reasons other than innate intelligence, nobbled when it comes to competing effectively for those high paid jobs."</i><br /><br />Does that not contradict premise (1), since by (1) those in group A who are more intelligent must also be more likely to get the higher paid jobs?wombatnoreply@blogger.com